gdict,
This is sounding so familiar. The sellers have all the proof to win their case against the chargebacks and Paypal does nothing with it. Well, all I can say is if they do enough of this, perhaps everyone will pull out of Paypal and THAT portion of Ebay will go belly-up. I personally don't use them anymore and am constantly telling everyone I can about their shady practices. I know of six people that have cancelled their accounts because of what I told happened to me and others. Keep it up folks... without customers using their so called service... there will be no way for them to stay in business. THAT'S the American way!

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Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and have come here in desperation after finally becoming totally fed up with and after being screwed in a big way by PayPal. I will try to keep my story brief, but it is a long saga...

Last October, I had a 35 year old penny arcade fortune teller machine listed eBay for a client of mine. I am an ebay trading assistant and have sold over a quarter million dollars worth of items for one client alone. (ok, 146K was a Shelby Mustnag, but a lot of it was $25-$100 space toys). A prospective buyer contacted me and offered me $3000 for the machine that was in my ebay store for $3500. I declined and eventually he clicked 'buy it now' for $3499. All along he insisted he wanted to pay with his AMEX. (famous for siding with cars holders) He paid via PayPal and arranged shipping (~$600) to have it sent to him in Indianappolis, IN. Upon receiving the item, he immediately complained about problems with the sound quality, function, etc. about the fortune teller. All lies. He insisted repairs would cost $500 and demanded that I refund $500 to him. I refused. The auction had clearly described the item, it was well illustrated in pictures, and the terms were clearly stated "as-is" "no returns". He persisted and eventually filed a chargeback via AMEX. He did not use the ebay dispute process. He did not file a dispute via Squaretrade, and he did not file a PayPal dispute. He simply went straight for the chargeback.

PayPal immediately pulled the $3499 from my account, causing serious disruption to my ebay commerce. They eventually put the money back, then some time later, pulled it out again. Then they pulled it back.... Then they gave it back to me... They finallaly took the $3499 out, almost four months after this started and told me the case was closed and that nothing more would be done. All the while, I had provided them with unfallible evidence that this buyer had initiated a fraudulent chargeback. They failed to dispute this chargeback with AMEX and have placed the financial burden on me. My PayPal accont currently stands at -$3200 and they have told me they will send it to collections after 120 days if I don't pay them.

I have since diverted all incoming payments to my girlfriend's account, but I still fear they may attempt to debit my checking account for the money they think I owe them.

I asked them to provide me information about the chargeback, since I think my buyer lied to AMEX, but they say I need a subpoena to get that info due to "privacy" concerns. I think their "chargeback specialists" are either totally incompetant or they simply don't care, based on many things I have read here at paypalsucks.

I am in a conundrum as to what I should do next. My first inclination is to go to the police and see if I can get them to go after the buyer for criminal fraud. The problem is that PayPal is at fault here too. I provied them with everything they needed to fight this chargeback and they failed. It should have been a slam dunk, but they say they can't win it.

It is all so frustrating. Horribly, unedingly frustrating, but I am devoted to not letting this criminal defraud me or my client of $3500. Sure, we could file suit, but all that costs big $$$. There has got to be some way to make this right.

Does anyone know how I should should handle this? What to do next? Who is the best authority to contact?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Greg

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dealhunter999, You can show paypal signature proof and paypal will not fight the chargeback. The employees of paypal are a bunch of brainless simpletons who couldn't care less about your delivery confirmation.

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Fleabay1st,
I have to register a card in order to take out all my money from PayPal. I waned to make sure If I do that and should paypal tries to take out $$$ from my bank a/c (I can make sure that they cant debit from this account) or credit card , I have acard that can protect me and refuse to put a charge on credit card just because paypal decides in favor of seller. I am a honest seller but last thing I want is some scammer takes away my property and I sit helplessly doing nothing.I would rather donate it to someone needy.

On another note, Method mentioned above can help us file the claim in small court should th need arise.

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dealhunter999, My question is... why are you asking a question like this based on a chargeback? I have NEVER in my life made a purchase or registered an account or anything based on whether or not I can do a chargeback. These chargebacks are bullsh*t! This is the problem!
I wouldn't be worried about paypal charging your card but they will snatch your bank account.

As far as their seller protection? What a joke that is. Try using it sometime. They always have lies and excuses. Try speaking to their supposedly chargeback department. Try talking to anyone at paypal besides an immature child who reads a script when talking to you.

I have seen paypal reverse money even when the customer said nothing, did no chargeback at all. The customer has been as confused as the seller. It's like they get a ****roach up their *ss and want to cause trouble for a seller or make a few bucks. Trust me after selling for 7 years and using paypal I have seen it all.

Now, a note on the legal system. Police don't care if you get cheated. They won't file any type of criminal charges against people, they won't get your item back. They all say the same thing it's a civil matter file against them in court and get a worthless judgment that you will probably never collect. I have a $1,600 judgment against a guy in california. I am across the nation what good is it? He has a beautiful hutch, his money and even stuck me paying shipping. Paypal was such a help in that situation, NOT!

Bestofn10uns, I am so sorry about your children's christmas. I hate it when I hear stories like this because I know exactly what you went through. I hope you get this person. Don't give up keep going, track them down if you have to drive to their home. Post their name all over the internet, do whatever it takes to get them. Then file against paypal in your own local courts, they won't show and you will get a default judgement... GO GET EM!

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MrPat, Reading your post was DeJa Vue(?)!!! Nearly to the exact wording!!!

I sold an item for $1250.00 plus $103.00 shipping charges. I did everything I was supposed to do, including contacting PayPal prior to shipping to confirm that the buyer was, in fact, a current, confirmed and verified customer of theirs. Only after receiving their okay, and verifing the monies were in my PayPal acct, I shipped the product via UPS to the confirmed address with a signature required. Two days later Paypal refunded this persons money, and told me that the buyer had disputed the transaction, claiming unauthorized activity. After disputing the buyers claim (the buyer used a valid E-Bay acct, A valid PayPal acct, A confirmed Mailing address, A vaild e-mail address and someone at the confirmed address signed the UPS delivery reciept), PayPal then said that I was not covered under their "SELLER PROTECTION POLICY" because I had not given them a tracking number nor had I responded in a timely manner. So I sent them a copy of the e-mail that they sent me the very next day thanking me for my quick response and telling me that they would contact me after the investigation was concluded. They never did. I had to contact them. They have since told me that it is MY responsibility to contact law enforcement, both locally and in Detroit, to report this person.When I informed them that this same buyer had purchased other items, that when used with mine, would allow him to make his own credit cards,I was told that I had to contact the FBI, the Identity Theft Bureau and a few others myself. So I asked for the reason that the funds were reversed, so I could contact the necessary authorities, they said they couldnt tell me because of "CUSTOMER CONFIDENTIALITY RIGHTS" How in the hell am I supposed to contact law enforcement and tell them "I got robbed but I dont know how?" I have requested NUMEROUS times 1 thing, an answer one question...."For what reason was I denied coverage under your "SELLERS PROTECTION POLICY???". I'm still asking!!! There is so much more to this story, but I have already gone way too far in to it. But, as you can see, I haven't given in just yet. Yes, I am looking for a class action at this point. I am looking for my "DAVID". I know that eventually, someone will be able to get this ball rolling. And when they do.....GOD HELP PAYPAL, because they will finally get whats been deserved to them all this time!!!

And when they do have to pay back all the money they have stolen from all of us, then I will give my kids the best Christmas they have ever had, since PayPal stole theirs last December!!! They got nothing from me, because PayPal kept saying "there is no reason why you shouldnt get your funds back immediately"!!! Yeah?? Well, there wasn't even time to get on the Salvation Armys list for gifts for my girls. Because it was so late in the month, they had already given out everything that they had. We were blessed with the makings for Christmas dinner, though, by the grace of God.

I HATE PayPal and all that it is!!!! I trusted them to protect me!!! I placed my blind faith in them, thinking that that was what I was paying them for...TO PROTECT ME FROM THE CRIMINALS AND THEIVES!!!! I HAD NO IDEA THAT THEY WERE THE THEIVES!!!

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MrPat, Reading your post was DeJa Vue(?)!!! Nearly to the exact wording!!!

I sold an item for $1250.00 plus $103.00 shipping charges. I did everything I was supposed to do, including contacting PayPal prior to shipping to confirm that the buyer was, in fact, a current, confirmed and verified customer of theirs. Only after receiving their okay, and verifing the monies were in my PayPal acct, I shipped the product via UPS to the confirmed address with a signature required. Two days later Paypal refunded this persons money, and told me that the buyer had disputed the transaction, claiming unauthorized activity. After disputing the buyers claim (the buyer used a valid E-Bay acct, A valid PayPal acct, A confirmed Mailing address, A vaild e-mail address and someone at the confirmed address signed the UPS delivery reciept), PayPal then said that I was not covered under their "SELLER PROTECTION POLICY" because I had not given them a tracking number nor had I responded in a timely manner. So I sent them a copy of the e-mail that they sent me the very next day thanking me for my quick response and telling me that they would contact me after the investigation was concluded. They never did. I had to contact them. They have since told me that it is MY responsibility to contact law enforcement, both locally and in Detroit, to report this person.When I informed them that this same buyer had purchased other items, that when used with mine, would allow him to make his own credit cards,I was told that I had to contact the FBI, the Identity Theft Bureau and a few others myself. So I asked for the reason that the funds were reversed, so I could contact the necessary authorities, they said they couldnt tell me because of "CUSTOMER CONFIDENTIALITY RIGHTS" How in the hell am I supposed to contact law enforcement and tell them "I got robbed but I dont know how?" I have requested NUMEROUS times 1 thing, an answer one question...."For what reason was I denied coverage under your "SELLERS PROTECTION POLICY???". I'm still asking!!! There is so much more to this story, but I have already gone way too far in to it. But, as you can see, I haven't given in just yet. Yes, I am looking for a class action at this point. I am looking for my "DAVID". I know that eventually, someone will be able to get this ball rolling. And when they do.....GOD HELP PAYPAL, because they will finally get whats been deserved to them all this time!!!

And when they do have to pay back all the money they have stolen from all of us, then I will give my kids the best Christmas they have ever had, since PayPal stole theirs last December!!! They got nothing from me, because PayPal kept saying "there is no reason why you shouldnt get your funds back immediately"!!! Yeah?? Well, there wasn't even time to get on the Salvation Armys list for gifts for my girls. Because it was so late in the month, they had already given out everything that they had. We were blessed with the makings for Christmas dinner, though, by the grace of God.

I HATE PayPal and all that it is!!!! I trusted them to protect me!!! I placed my blind faith in them, thinking that that was what I was paying them for...TO PROTECT ME FROM THE CRIMINALS AND THEIVES!!!! I HAD NO IDEA THAT THEY WERE THE THEIVES!!!

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Just wanted to let know that I am not yet burned by PP but want to safeguard myself with any issues.
I had another question regarding credit card number. My cc registered with PP is expired and PP has limit my withdrawal limit to $500. I was wondering if should I be using low limit CC (capital one) or AMEX with no limit which has a very good history of fighting chargebacks in favor of customer?

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Fleabay1st,Catch for the buyer is they have to show the valid photo ID and signed for it. Now there 2 kind of thieves(atleast from what I read. One who actually commited fraud and requested charge back. Second one is the person who is using someone else card. Later one will never show up at the station with a valid ID card. Making a fake ID is a bigger federal crime and if caught, punishment is severe. Very few thieves will be willing do that.So I guess risk gets lower. They will rather scam someone else and get money easily.First kind of thieves are the one who owns the card and wil have to sign for it.

Now why would PP will not favor in sellers being fruad by buyer 'cause if decision is in sellers favor , seller protection policy(non-existent?) will kick in even if credit card company charges back and PP will take a loss! So it makes more sense for them to slide with buyer since they have selles account control.Partky this is due to the fact that currently FEDEX/UPS allows anyone to sign and recieve the package.It is a fact. We can ship the item to confirmed address but anyone can sign for it and buyer can claim I did not recieve it!

Atleast with strategy , buyer is forced to show ID and pick up the package. This can be forwarded to PP as a very good proof and if done via USPS can provide a great evidence to PP that item was actually delivered and signed for by the buyer!
Downside is it violation of seller protection policy ? Cost is another factor too but worth it in case of expensive items.

If buyer is a geniune buyer he/she will show up and get the item anyway.

In my opinion,chargeback option will be a big issue for for both kind of buyer.If items is not picked it comes back to us:)We get the upper hand knowing that buyer was a fraud.
That leaves another open issue, what if buyer claims item not as described. Now, I haven't done much pp policy study but if an experience ebayer can chime in about the PP rerun policy would be great. During listing we do have an option for NO RETURN. I don't know how effective it is though

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Fleabay1st,Catch for buyer is they have show the valid photo ID and signed for it. Now there 2 kind of thieves(atleast from what I read. One who actually commited fraud and requested charge back. Second one is the person who is using someone else card. Later one will never show up at the station with a valid ID card. Making a fake ID is a bigger federal crime and if caught, punishment is sever. Very few thievs will be willing do that. They will rather scam someone else and get money easily.First kind of thieves are the one who who owns the card and wil have to sign for it.

Now why would PP will not favor in sellers being fruad by buyer 'cause if decision is in sellers favor , seller policy will kick in even if credit card company charges back and PP will take a loss! So it makes more sense for them to slide with buyer since they have selles account control.Partky this is due to the fact that currently FEDEX/UPS allows anyone to sign and recieve the package.It is a fact. We can ship the item to confirmed address but anyone can sign for it and buyer can claim I did not recieve it!

Atleast with strategy , buyer is forced to show ID and pick up the package. This can be forwarded to PP as a very good proof and if done via USPS can provide a great evidence to PP that item was actually delivered and signed for by the buyer!
Downside is it violation of seller protection policy ? Cost is another factor too but worth it in case of expensive items.

If buyer is a geniune buyer he/she will show up and get the item anyway.

In my opinion,chargeback option will be a big issue for for both kind of buyer.If items is not picked it comes back to us:)We get the upper hand knowing that buyer was a fraud.
That leaves another open issue, what if buyer claims item not as described. Now, I haven't done much pp policy study but if an experience ebayer can chime in about the PP rerun policy would be great. During listing we do have an option for NO RETURN. I don't know how effective it is though!

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dealhunter999, Great plan, only problem is, the people doing chargebacks are thieves. They will get your product and still do the chargebacks, keeping your product. You can show paypal signature proof and paypal will not fight the chargeback. The employees of paypal are a bunch of brainless simpletons who couldn't care less about your delivery confirmation. They have a standard proceedure they follow and that is, make a dollar anywhere you can. FROM THE SELLERS!

You have to suffer your loss and call it business.

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hmmm,

Read almost all the posts. I am a small time seller on ebay and desperatley wants to get out of ebay. I was thinking the best way for a seller to protect themselves from expensive items aginst chargeback is to use 'hold at location service', Buyer must go to UPS/FEDEX location and claim the item It will be a difficult thing to do but definately will be a solid evidence that buyer has actually purchased the item!
'Cause In order for buyer to pick up the item from FEDEX/UPS they will need to show the valid photo ID and signed for it. Now if that happens, Seller has a solid proof that byer actually picked up the item.
Also, FEDEX Home Appointment delivery would be a good choice too!

In worst case,if buyer chargebacks we have solid proof with carrier endorsed and if not we can claim against fedex/ups/USPS for releasing item to unauthorised person.If buyer refuses to do that certainly something is fishy as they should not be having an issue with such a arrangment!
Buyer can check the item at the location and if there is an issue they can refuse the delivery (This might be it dificult don't know much about it, anyone?)


What do other sellers think? Do you guys think this method will work? downside is, not all potential seller will like it but hey atleast we are covered till certain extent!

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I have a question: PayPal has ATM cards with Visa logos on them and Visa cards. Does this put them under some sort of bank-type category regarding regulations?

Also, just for the record, there are just as many scammer sellers on eBay as there are scammer buyers (IMHO) - just to keep this argument from sounding one-sided. I both buy and sell on eBay, and I have not yet (knock on wood) been scammed by a buyer; but I routinely get strong-armed, harassed, bullied, and yes, even scammed by SELLERS. This is particularly true when it comes to feedback - sellers should leave feedback when they receive a payment on time and not force the buyer to first leave feedback before doing so themselves. When it comes to eBay (not PayPal), IMHO, they are definitely on the side of the sellers.

As for PayPal, I had only one problem with them and they helped. It took a little time, but it got resolved. I bought an inexpensive collectors item on eBay (less than $20.00). The person took way to long to send it and never returned any of my emails. I complained to Paypal. Paypal couldn't get the guy to respond either. Paypal gave me my refund after the alloted time. Eventually, the guy finally responded to my emails. I guess he went out of town or something. He said he felt bad and shipped me the item anyway for free.

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HI my name is helene as you can see on my email addres I am a PayPal employee.
I went on this website by curiosity to have a look and I am amazed about how people can talk about things they do really know.
I work on buyers complaints myself, I know our system is not 100 % perfect but how is?
When someone open a complaint we make an investigation on both side and do our best to get a refund from bad seller but sometimes it is just impossible to recover it because we can just simply travel to that person house and say listen give us our money back this is the web buyer know that risk and IT IS WRITEN IN OUR USER AGREEMENT.

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rexorr, Ya sure Paypal and stop using them

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