Vicky,

I was reading through these threads because of my own recent experience with Paypal. Basically, they did the same thing to me that they did to you. I sold a brand new authentic handbag. A man purchased it as a last minute xmas gift for his wife. Once he received it, he filed a report with paypal. He told them it had scratches, didn't look new, which was an outright lie. He also told them he thought it was fake because it was way to soft to be real. According to Paypal's time log of events, a minute after he filed his first report he escalated it to claim. I was never contacted with any problem by the buyer and Paypal did not require any two party communication between us before they imposed their control.

When Paypal notified me that they decided to give my buyer a full refund I asked for details. They would not tell me why or how they made their decision or provide me with any details. I was told I would have to wait, that they didn't provide that information at this time. I think this particular Paypal rep told me I would get a report that had the details once the case was closed.(Of course, I never got anything) I advised the rep that I wished to appeal and was told I would have to wait until the case was closed and submit an appeal from my account. After our phone conversation I sent emails to every Paypal email address I had advising them of my intent to appeal.

Paypal promptly issued my buyer a refund. They did not require the buyer to return the merchandise before they issued the refund. When they notified me of their decision to issue a refund, they said my buyer was instructed to return the merchandise to me and to provide them with proof of shipping by a deadline.

About mid point to my buyers deadline, I received a new email from Paypal. This email informed me that my buyer had been given optional instructions. 1) he could return the bag to me. 2) he could destroy it. 3)he could return it to Paypal to be destroyed. I immediately contacted Paypal. I spent days in contact with them, calls-emails, over this.

I told them that they did not have my consent to destroy a $795.00 retail value handbag and obviously, I would not give them my permission to destroy it. While contacting them over this, one of their reps informed me that they had received an appraisal that said the handbag was fake and gave me the details on who performed the appraisal.

Obviously, authentication appraisals were required, for my buyer to support his accusations. My buyer was allowed to obtain only one appraisal and he obtained that from a small independent local shop, Trendy Moda. Conveniently, Trendy Moda went out of business the same month my buyer submitted the appraisal to Paypal.

I tracked down Mary Ann Feerer the former owner of Trendy Moda. I learned that at the time her shop did the appraisal her shop did not sell or carry the brand handbag they appraised. Mary Ann was uncertain and unclear on who performed the appraisal, her or one of her clerks. And in so many words, she told me that the appraisal was guess work. So, Paypal based their decision to issue a refund off guess work and now was instructing someone to destroy a $795.00 handbag.

I stayed on Paypal over the email I received. When I learned about the appraisal mistake, I informed them. When I informed them, I reminded them of my intent to appeal. And again, I made it clear that I would not grant permission to destroy my property. I told them to please promptly correct the instructions they had given my buyer, make sure my buyer knows to return the merchandise to me. It took days to get a response from Paypal but I finally got a response that said my buyer was instructed to return the merchandise and again they gave me his deadline.

On the deadline, I received an email from them that said the case was closed because my buyer failed to respond by his deadline. My account information said, The buyer would not be issued a refund because he failed to respond by his deadline. No further action is required of you at this time. Which really didn't make sense, because my buyer had been issued a refund quite sometime back. And I didn't want to take no action, I wanted to submit an appeal.

Paypal had told me I would be able to submit an appeal from my account once the case was closed. I attempted to do this but of course was unable to, no surprise. So, I began contacting them for assistance. I asked them to please promptly initiate my appeal. I got no response.

For the next six days I repeated my request. I finally got a response. Basically, their email said that the day after my buyer's deadline, they destroyed the handbag. The next day I got a new email from Paypal. Basically, the new email told me that because my buyer failed to respond by his deadline, the case had gone in my favor.

The contradictions in those two emails are indicative of what I encountered and put up with for 70 days. I am out a $795.00 handbag and the money it cost me to purchase it. I intend to attempt recovery by suing Paypal in small claims court.

Vicki, I can tell you why you didn't get your handbag back. Because Paypal decided the bag was fake your handbag went to the Paypal facility below, to be destroyed. So in other words, in actuality, there isn't an appeal process.

PayPal Returns
12750 Perimeter Dr Suite 154
Dallas, TX 75228

Talk about fringe benefits! Can you imagine how happy the employees at Perimeter Drive must be? Everyday like Christmas!

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the_simurgh,I appreciate your help simurgh.Yeah,if I were you I would turn them over to a collection agency..Thats a damn shame though but at least you might recoup all (if not most)of your money back with some heat on them.

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I heard from paypal with an update once in 14months of a chargeback fight. the other 28 times were to tell me i owed them the negative balance. Paypal put money before morality.
It's about time a paper or tv show ran an international investigation into them, i would love to see a real person from paypal be grilled whilst i eat my tea!
BRING BACK PETER COOK! HE WOULD SORT EM OUT!!!!!!

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gdict,
if you sue they have to pay the court costs when you win. the fact is even online the words AS IS means AS IS. AMEX should be contacted and told that he bought the item as is and the fact is pay pal can't ****.. their tos and arbitration bullshit is illegal. this means they can in no way hide behind it.

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PaypalSucks,
actually you only get screwed if you sell. i know a guy who has an account he's had for 4 years. not one damn problem. they froze my account, with 1,500 bucks in it. i sued them in small claims court and won due to the fact they didn't appear from cali to fight it. my judge says to turn them over to a collection agency and such. he gave me the name of one that will pay what ebay owes me and then they will bother ebay for the money. i think i may do that.

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PaypalSucks, I had a quick question..I ordered an item from buy.com(never buy anything from this place)After many attempts they would not refund my money so what I did was contacted palpay and they did nothing.So I contacted my bank and had the charges reversed so...my paypal balance before this was $0 but now its a negative -$700.00.I contacted paypal and they told me that I owe them this money and thank you for using paypal.Thats just beauitful,they wouldn't even help before and now they are trying to charge me for something plus..buy.com still owes me money.Now my question is..I used a bank debit card(money straight out of my checking account) through paypal plus I had a credit card as a back-up..Can paypal try to charge the $700.00 to either or both cards?If they can,is that legal?Okay thanks..I will never use paypal again and I might just include them in my complaint with the Attorney Generals Office against Buy.com

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well sais !

I declare war on paypal too ! i want them to be fair ' if they cant be fair then they should be shut down and im getting intouch with my best lawer to sue those who froze my account and they accused me of being a fraud !

i have proof!

i am in the right !

long live the truth!

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GUYS,
STOP THEIR BUSINESS. THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH PAYPAL
I'M WRITING EMAIL TO ALL THE COMPANIES I DEAL WITH TO STOP PAYPAL, WHETHER THEY ACT OR NOT.
IT WILL CERTAINLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
DO IT NOW!

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Hi,
I'm another victim of paypal. My $7,200 stuck in my restricted account. All I did, tried to transfer $5000 to my brother's account and they stopped all transactions and accounts access limited.
What I think the best way to hit paypal is to contact ALL the major companies online which offer Paypal for transactions, contact them and show them this website. Ask them to stop offering a fraudulent company like Paypal to its customers. Paypal will stop recieving funds. A website with thousands of visitors, when stops offering Paypal transactions, think how much PP business will get affected.
Hope this helps.
Andi.

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Ya, after PayPal stole $69.90 from me, even though they new it was a fraudster that hacked into the 2 PayPal accounts and admitted it in their e-mails, they still refused to refund me the money saying it was my fault for not reviewing the payment transactions. I even provided them with the prove that the products were purchased and on top of that, the products I sell are virtual products that are downloaded right from my website in which PayPal claims they don't refund money on virtual products.

Here are some things they told me in the e-mails I exchanged with them:

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“PayPal reserves the right not to dispute a chargeback even if the seller has provided some evidence, usually if we feel the evidence that is provided will not likely be successful i.e. a receipt showing the item was shipped (but does not show it was delivered)(we normally would be more likely to win a chargeback case with a online tracking number not a receipt or customs form). It does cost PayPal a good amount of money to dispute a chargeback and if we feel the information is not enough evidence then we may decide not to dispute it.�

^^This basically says that they'll only side with the side where they're the ones not losing the money even if they have to steal the money from their customers.



"The Seller Protection Policy is only available for U.S., UK or Canadian sellers transacting with U.S., U.K, or Canadian buyers."

^^Therefore PayPal only recommends that you sell to people in these 3 countries ONLY, otherwise you're taking a risk.



"The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-delivery which can be tracked online. For transactions equal to $250.00 USD or more in value, the seller also needs to provide a proof of receipt signed, or otherwise acknowledged, by the buyer. A proof of delivery from the shipper which does not contain the buyer's signature or other acknowledgement will not be sufficient. Because comparable proof-of-delivery is not currently available for electronically-delivered items, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items."

^^PayPal sure is asking for a lot. This also states that PayPal won't protect me against scammers because I sell digital goods that are electronically-delivered even though they also state on their website that they won't refund money on digital products??? PayPal is very confusing and they just don't make sense!!!



"The seller accepted a single payment from only one PayPal account for the purchase. (Multiple payments from different accounts for a single item are a fraud indicator. Sellers should not accept such payments.)"

^^So PayPal apparently wants you to check every transaction. Why aren't the people who own these fraudulent accounts or PayPal themselves responsible for letting these scammers hack into their accounts to begin with?



"The seller cooperates in resolving disputes by responding in the following time periods: When a complaint occurs, the seller must provide complete information within seven days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a reversal, sellers must provide the information within three days. PayPal will indicate he response time required in the e-mail message sent to the seller."

^^Why bother! PayPal won't help you anyways so you might as well not waste your time. The above quote is exactly what I did, but they still didn't listen or want to help me out.



"PayPal protects sellers from possible fraudulent payment activity by actively screening transactions for fraudulent buyers; from false buyer claims by providing a team of chargeback specialists and a resolution center that helps sellers resolve disputes in a fair manner; and by providing the Seller Protection Policy, which encourages good selling practices that in turn protect the seller from possible fraud."

^^If this is the case then how did I get scammed and why did PayPal reverse my funds?



"The Seller Protection Policy is also designed to protect sellers that have followed a set of good selling practices against chargebacks resulting from the unauthorized use of cards or false claims of non-receipt."

^^I did, but it didn't help me. PayPal is only trying to look good.



"Thank you for contacting PayPal. Even though you were not covered under our Seller Protection Policy, this does not stop you from seeking recovery for your lost funds. You can file a report with your Local Police Department and follow this with a complaint to the Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC).

The IFCC is partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National White Collar Crime Center. The IFCC will review and evaluate complaints so that information can be referred it to the appropriate local, state, or federal agency. Every complaint that is referred by the IFCC is sent to one or more law enforcement or regulatory agencies that have jurisdiction over the report. You can file a complaint with the IFCC at:

http://www1.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp";

^^That's strange, the link they gave me doesn't work!



"You received funds that were reported to be potentially fraudulent. We have received notice that the holder of the originating account may not have authorized the transaction.

When a payment is marked as ineligible for Seller Protection, you do assume a risk if the payment was made with fraudulent funds. When any payment is received, you have the opportunity to refund the buyer's payment at no cost to you.

We regret your frustration in this matter, and assure you that no report of fraudulent activity through our service is handled lightly. When you signed up for a PayPal account, you stated that you had read and agreed to our User Agreement and all of its terms.

A primary part of our User Agreement is our Seller Protection Policy. Our Seller Protection Policy is very specific as to the risk-reduction procedures that a seller needs to follow in order for a transaction to be covered. Any time that a seller decides to work outside of the realm of these guidelines, the seller assumes the risk of not being covered by Seller Protection.

Please understand that we cannot keep our sellers from choosing to accept a risky business transaction. We have taken several measures to protect our sellers from possible fraudulent transactions; however, the decision to accept or deny a transaction is ultimately up to the individual seller. We regret that you have had this experience.

^^Blah, Blah, Blah. If they knew that the transaction was done by a scammer, then why did they still reverse my funds? Yes, I regret using PayPal!



"Following the Seller Protection Policy is completely voluntary. When you decide to complete transactions that are marked as Seller Protection Ineligible on the transaction details page, you assume the risk associated with the transaction, as well as any potential liability."

^^So I'm suppose to review every transaction? What about if the transaction is done automatically and the buyer downloads the products immediately? How would I know if the buyer is a scammer if he hacked into another users PayPal account that is legit?



"The transaction(s) did not qualify for Seller Protection because:

· Shipment was not made to the confirmed address on the Transaction Details page"

^^Now you're telling me that I didn't ship my virtual products to the street address? They did however, download the products from my website and I have proven that and also stated on my website that we don't refund any amount of money whatsoever due to scammers. I guess that doesn't count for anything when using PayPal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PayPal's Customer Service Phone Number: 1-402-935-2050

It's very plain and simple to understand: DON'T USE PAYPAL and if you have to, then just make sure that you always remove your money from your PayPal account to your actual bank account before they can steal it. You're better off just using another service that's hassle free.

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<hater>, this can happen if the item weighs very little. otherwise u can show that it was an empty box by the shipping weight.

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<helene oba>, my suggestion is use some of your paycheck for a dictionary. do you know how many times a bad ebay seller has ripped me off. i file a claim with paypal and they check into it. and take 25.00 for doing so. and yet a buyer only gets the amount of the item back. you are out s/h. so now ebay sellers are gouging on s/h. and lots of the shipping labels dont state the cost to ship the item. so i have a friend that sells look it up for me. so many times i get gouged on shipping. i now buy on yahoo auctions more than ebay. ebay is going down. just like kmart did!

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I was doing great as an ebay seller until I fell for a scam,
Sold a laptop at buy it now price, Sent it overseas. Made a nice profit, Funds cleared right after purchase. I withdrawed to my bank.The buyer had hijacked an paypal account. That should not have been my problem.
Everything ok until 7 days later, an email from paypal. stating they are freezing my account and reversing the payment. Well I have the money in my bank account. After speaking to a rep, the answer was quite simple, Oh you can just send funds in to lower your negative balance ( amt of transfer). You sent the laptop to an unconfirmed adress and there is nothing we can do.
Sure there is something we can do. Use a credit card service linksys etc. Papal further informed me I have to pay the negative bal. No way I am going to pay. Let them take it up with collections. I should not be held responsible for there
terrible security.

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hi. i had 11,000 usd in my paypal account. i transffered to my checking account. and took out the money closed account before anyone could file claim. and if people do and my account becomes -11,000usd. what will happen and will that affect my credit and future income. even though i shipped items and have proof.

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I too was ripped off at paypal. I sent an item, have all tracking information. I lost money on the shipping because I was a first timer & did not calculate correctly. Although I clearly told the buyer in an email and on the phone that he was to pay the cost of the shipping. He paid by credit card. He called and verified that I shipped got the tracking number and then did a charge back which was honored by paypal. Then they wanted me to pay back the money they let him charge back. So I'm out what I paid for the item, out the shipping cost and out the payment that was charged back.

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